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Germany still has concerns about the primary JANUS band


JANUS colleagues!

I have received an email from Germany indicating that despite our agreement with them at the JANUS workshop last year, there remain serious concerns about the JANUS band overlapping the existing analogue UW telephone band. They fear that JANUS might interfere with submarine communications, particularly worrying in the case of emergencies.

I am planning to meet with a DEU representative next week to discuss possible ways forward. Before I do so, I'd like to get some feedback from the JANUS community about this issue. To make it easy, I've put up a simple multiple choice questionnaire (only 9 questions) on surveymonkey that you can complete in less than 5 minutes. Please do so! The survey is at:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GRL8B7W(external link)

Click here to take survey

Many thanks,
John.


Thanks for this John,

solving this issues is a priority !

already gave my input !

Joao


> JANUS colleagues!
>
> I have received an email from Germany indicating that despite our agreement with them at the JANUS workshop last year, there remain serious concerns about the JANUS band overlapping the existing analogue UW telephone band. They fear that JANUS might interfere with submarine communications, particularly worrying in the case of emergencies.
>
> I am planning to meet with a DEU representative next week to discuss possible ways forward. Before I do so, I'd like to get some feedback from the JANUS community about this issue. To make it easy, I've put up a simple multiple choice questionnaire (only 9 questions) on surveymonkey that you can complete in less than 5 minutes. Please do so! The survey is at:
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GRL8B7W(external link)
>
> Click here to take survey
>
> Many thanks,
> John.


Sorry if I've neglected to keep this thread up to date, but I thought I'd already posted (perhaps elsewhere) that an agreement has been reach in Brussels at NATO HQ concerning the potential interference of JANUS with UnderWater Telephones (UWT) conforming to NATO Standard 1074. The upshot is that we think the JANUS MAC and channel reservation mechanisms will greatly mitigate the interference risk and we've committed to conducting joint experimental trials to test that, starting in 2014.

John.


Yes, concerns are still existing. The current MAC is not working.

Table II within ANEP87 covers a frequency range from 9440 to 13440 Hz. This disagrees with 2.1. Paragraph 2. stating 9440 to 13600 Hz. We need a change of this paragraph in the review process of STANAG 4748. The JANUS frequency band in ratification of ANEP-87 overlaps the frequency band given for voice communication in STANAG 1475.

The acoustical frequency band from 1 to 12 kHz is exclusively occupied for mil. hydro acoustical applications. Civilian underwater applications (see ISO/IEC 30140, 30143) have to use other bands. The navy needs silence.

I strongly recommend an "User class id"-based definition of the frequency band in JANUS. E.g. the use of User class id = 0 is coupled with the frequency bands of 1475, if and only if mil. assets are involved. Emission control with higher frequency bands is important also for marine mammals. For Hazard markers (wrecks, ...) I recommend the frequency band from 24 - 32 kHz (SALSA band). We need small transducers and a long endurance in small devices. Also frequency bands for the command and control of AUVs, gliders and NEMO floats (including First Contact) above 12 kHz have to be defined in this year.

Hydrophones are broad band; applications should inspect the frequency band of interest.




Hello.

I don't fully understand a couple of things and in order to maintain clarity, I recommend we remain factual.

Here are my comments:


One is:
"The current MAC is not Working". What exactly is meant ? I saw it working several times.

also:
"The acoustical frequency band from 1 to 12 kHz is exclusively occupied for mil. hydro acoustical applications. Civilian underwater applications (see ISO/IEC 30140, 30143) have to use other bands."
Is by no means factual. We should perhaps be careful with this.

The note on 13440 vs. 13600 is well taken and will be addressed.

I'm sure the immediate future is to add frequencies to the JANUS standard. The user classes definition should remain de-coupled from the frequencies in my opinion.

Although hydrophones are broadband, it's common for modem manufacturers to employ transducers that work as projectors and receivers and are not fit for use outside of the band they were designed for.


Cheers and thanks for the discussions

João


VoIP on satellite creates a problem, because of the speaker collitions based on the latency around 500 ms. Underwater we are working in the area of seconds (factor 2+) -> MAC is not working. The spectrum is the so-called „super enabler“ and one of the main keys to interoperability.  An adequate access level to the frequency bands entails significant efforts to ensure the coexistence of all users without conflict!

Please inspect also the REGULATIONS COMMISSION DELEGATED REGULATION (EU) 2017/2268 of 26 September 2017, amending Council Regulation (EC) No 428/2009 setting up a
Community regime for the control of exports, transfer,
brokering and transit of dual-use items.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32017R2268&from=DE(external link)

European Regulations

15.12.2017, Official Journal of the European Union, page: L 334/139

5A001b)

Telecommunication systems and equipment, and specially designed
components and accessories therefor, having any of the following
characteristics, functions or features:

1. Being underwater untethered communications systems having any
of the following:

a. An acoustic carrier frequency outside the range from 20 kHz to 60 kHz

European industry has not the same freedom like the US.

We have to shift the band up to higher frequencies, also good for marine mammals (EMCON)! I propose the band from 24-32 kHz.

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